One of two Christmas gifts for the friends of Gwaith-i-Phethdain is Sindarin translation of a fragment of Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth or ‘The Debate of. That is not the voice that the Wise hear out of the darkness and from beyond it. Nay, lord, the Wise among Men say: “We were not made. It takes the form of a conversation between Finrod and a human wisewoman named Andreth, who talk about the relationship between elves.

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Discussion in ‘ “Morgoth’s Ring” ‘ started by BelegApr 22, Log in or Sign up. Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. Jan 10, Messages: BelegApr 22, Sep 30, Messages: I have only read the Athrabeth once, and therefore this may be off the mark.

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

Also, I don’t remember the Answer of Ingold that you alluded to. Christianity teaches clearly that death is an unnatural thing, imposed upon men because of the fall of Adam. It is the consequence of sin. This is why St. Paul boasts that Christ has taken the sting out of death, and he also says that the wages of sin is death.

This, I believe, is common to all Christian denominations, but in any case it is what the Catholic Church teaches, and Tolkien was a Catholic, so he believed it. Therefore echoes of this can be seen in Andreth’s words, in the Athrabeth.

Christopher Tolkien says in Morgoth’s Ring that Tolkien was revising the chronology.

TolkienWiki: Athrabeth__Finrod__ah__Andreth

There are allusions to the appearance of men still in the darkness of the stars, and that Melkor would have caused their fall before he was chained. This aathrabeth leave the Three Ages of his imprisonment as well as the years of the sun au account for such ancient lore among men. Sorry I can’t give quotes, I don’t have the book with me. In any way when reading any volume of HoME we must take care to note that the published Silmarillion is in many places contradictory with the other texts those of HoME.

Christopher Tolkien had to select among several versions of each story in order to forge a coherent narrative. For instance, my namesake, Eriol, was completely eliminated, while he was an important character in Tolkien’s mind, being the link between the elven legends and the England mythology he was attempting to devise.

EriolApr 22, Feb 12, Messages: I fish for carp. Sometimes at the same Finord Wolverhampton, United Kingdom Home Page: Inderjit SApr 22, Nov 20, Messages: WalterApr 23, EriolApr 23, But the serpent said to the woman: But great kings do not brook denials, and take what is their due. Polemical, but I can’t resist: The omniscient, allmighty benevolent one? The one that dismissed Adam and Eve? Or the one that favoured Abel and hence made sure that a big part of the worlds population consists of Cain’s descendants as can be seen in the daily news?


Or the one that “blotted out” every living thing except Noah and his passengers, because he no longer was pleased with his creation? The one that chose Abram and his family with their chronical endogamous habits? But I do think that philosophers gave some thought to those ideas.

Athrabeth finrod ah andreth : tolkienfans

Even aside from the Eastern religions where re-incarnation plays a major rolein early Egypt, for instance, when the corpses were preserved to enable a return of the soul “re-housing”but also in early Western civilizations philosophers like Orpheus “wandering of the soul”Pythagoras “re-incarnation”Empedokles dtto. As for the discussion about God, I would be willing, but I’m not sure I’m prepared for something like that.

Aside from that I have a feeling that a few things found in the Genesis are remnants of another atthrabeth probably polytheistic – religion or mythology, maybe derived from others found in Fijrod WalterApr 24, May 1, Messages: If Man was born in the same year as the Sun athrabet Moon, then perhaps Tolkien has the Gap theory in mind. I as a Young Earth creationist reject the Gap theory. But the gist of it is, that there is a supposed Gap between Genesis 1: And that during the Gap there was a very different world, where Angels possibly lived within the world more directly, and there was a Pre-Adamic Race, and that World was basically destroyed by Satan’s fall and the War between the Fallen and Unfallen angels.

Sounds quite a bit like the era of the Valian years. Most Gap theorists don’t think there where survivors of the Pre-Adamic race overlapping with Adam’s history though.

The 2nd and 3rd ages where not originally part of Tolkien’s plan at all, athhrabeth his Legenderium simply ended with the defeat of Morgoth.

Since there where only years form the birth of the Sun to the Defeat of Morgoth, that means it could easily have been hypothetically reconcilable with Early Pre-Flood Biblical history There where years till the Flood. Adam and most names finrkd in Genesis 5 lived to over though, all lived to over So there would be the question of how Men noticed they couldn’t live forever. But it could be possible that not every was as long lived as the direct line from Adam to Noah.

Perhaps only the Kin of Enosh where gifted with that long a life. And perhaps Cain’s line had the shortest lifespans in the Pre-Flood world, maybe all the Humans who figured Prominently in the Silmarilion would have been from Cain, andreh the Edain and the ones following the Enemy. Or maybe Tolkien originally intended more years from the Birth of the Sun to Morgoth’s defeat before he added other ages.

The History before Beren and Luthien ahdreth less detailed. Mithrandir-OlorDec 22, Dec 27, Messages: Onestly, I had always thought that Tolkien, in this particular myth, intended not only to made a thread-link between his tales and the Christian tale, but also, as the linguist as ha was, to render it on athfabeth terms: I think that, in this case, athrabehh claim of men was under such a kind of mistake: In this case, the Tale of Adanel is similar to many other tales of such a kind, not only to the Christian one i.

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So, maybe the first men effectively came under the shadow of Melkor, and doing so, thought that he was God and that athrabetb would be consequently damned no matter what in fact, if God is evil, all of his creation must be evil ; and that was finroe what Melkor wanted for the men to think: This story of the Voice seems to me in fact another mistake: Tolkien was not only a linguist and a Christian, but also a very learned person, who knew that, even if the massage of the Christian Tale was supposed to be accepted with faith from its acolytes, the tales themselves frequently contained the voluntary errors cited above; and so, I think that in the Tale of Adanel, the claim of Man to be eternal meant to point out their capacity to perceive God and what lied Beyond the Boundaries of The World more cleary than any other race, even more than the Valar themselves, as stated from the Gift of Men; and that they were, in fact, born to die in this world from athrabegh very beginning, but with the greatest Gift of hope: With that, I andreht want to affirm that men of old didn’t come under the shadow of Melkor, just that this event didn’t determine any kind of permanent Corruption, because such a thought, it seems to me, was exactly what Melkor hoped for; men thought to be Corrupted and Damned, and so they were either desperately vengeful against Melkor as the Three houses of the Edainor so convinced of their of Hopeless damnation to give in to it completely, as the Easterling.

AndrethJan 2, Mithrandir-OlorJan 2, Anereth always known anreth the Star of Betlehem was a comet, but maybe I’m mistaken However, even if Wikipedia is not the best source if you search for accurate news, here it is a link to its Jesus page http: I’ve known the fact that his traditional date of birth was not exact from many years now From the Catholic School I attended when I was a child.

But you can find this bit of news easily. Our Date for his Birth is off, but that’s not andretn. I onestly knew, as already stated, that the Star was a comet, and everything followed then However, all of this was referred to the Tale of Adanel.

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